The League is Rubbish !

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David Riley
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The League is Rubbish !

Post by David Riley » Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:40 am

So, I'm a new member doing my first ever race. I come in last and get 137 points.
A bit random. How does that work then ?
Well, it's the number of people in front of you subtracted from 150.
Why 150 ? Dunno, just is.

You could run on your own. But a running club is about running together.
It's a bit daft to have a league that reduces the points if more people are present.
If you want points, you won't get them in popular races.

The objective of the league is to be interesting, remind us who everyone else is, and encourage us with competition.
It's not very interesting or competitive because the person who enters the most races wins. Even if they walk.
The numbers are so big they have no meaning.

I suggest 1 point for each person behind you.
It's simple. There's incentive to go to races as a club, and get the slower runners along.


Please contribute to discussion about this or just change it.

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Re: The League is Rubbish !

Post by roballen » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:30 pm

Dave, I'm not sure I get your position - the league isn't won by the person who does the most points but the person who finishes highest across a minimum number of races. Hence why I scored the most total points in the winter league but only came 6th or something as i was beaten in the majority of those races. If you look at last year's summer league, Mark B won it but did the least races out of the top 3.

The fact that we have a minimum number of races to count keeps it exciting across the whole season as you don't have to race all of the races to compete.

It's only looking like you describe at the moment as most people haven't reached the minimum number races required, when everyone has done eight races it'll be more equal and even more competitive by the time we've done ten.

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David Riley
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Re: The League is Rubbish !

Post by David Riley » Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:52 pm

But it's not exciting across the whole season. Not even interesting.
I'm on top at the moment. It has no meaning.
Too complicated to see what's happening until it's all over. So I don't think anybody pays the league much attention.
It encourages new runners to do unpopular races instead of joining in with others.

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David Riley
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Re: The League is Rubbish !

Post by David Riley » Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:14 pm

Rob, I was not talking about changing the number of races. Can you see any disadvantages in the method I suggested ?

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Re: The League is Rubbish !

Post by Andy P » Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:54 pm

We're assuming that people's behaviour is in any way driven by the points offered the club's internal league...

But if it is, I can see a disadvantage in your idea. Races that are traditionally unpopular could get even more unpopular because "there's no point running for 3 points at the North Midlands when I could get 20 at the Booths". So the club gets even more concentrated on the few events - probably the GP series, Turkey Trot, Booths XC - at the expense of actually having broad horizons and running at different events.

As to whether the league is exciting, interesting etc, I'm sure there are 150 different opinions in the club and I hold at least 3 of them.

Also does the current system "encourage newcomers to do unpopular races"? Really? Does it? Or is that just a possible thought that someone somewhere 'could' have, maybe, but actually isn't an issue in reality.

On the basis that every system is flawed, but this one works well enough, I'd just leave it as it is.

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Re: The League is Rubbish !

Post by Mark » Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:31 am

I agree with Dave Riley ! =D>
And you should NOT get points if you are disqualified or do not complete the course !

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Re: The League is Rubbish !

Post by Heavyman » Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:19 pm

If people want a change thats ok just need to see if people agree.one system sugested would be to work out percentage of your finish time against the winners time male and female so if your time is 80% of winners time you get 80 points with bonus points for cb and pb newer runners would get a lot of bonus points but would probably have less % age points. If the system is to change then there would be a bit of work for phil to reprogram the web site.
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Re: The League is Rubbish !

Post by foxontherun » Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:34 pm

Mark is correct. You don't get points if you are DQ'd or don't finish the course. However, the Director of the respective races decide on the final results ultimately, and we will accept their decisions.

Regarding the points, Dave. I see no particular disadvantages with your proposed system, but no advantages either. Either way, there is a points differential according to where you finish in a race in relation to other club runners. The league positions are about the difference between the highest and lowest.

150 points could be 100, or even 50, since we rarely have more than 50 club runners at a race. The spread of qualifying races included in the respective leagues give club members a possible opportunity to select races tactically, in order to score higher points, and close in on a rival. That makes the closing weeks of either the summer or winter leagues more exciting, as the table takes final shape. That's what happens in any league, any sport.

Who remembers the very first leaders of the Premier league?
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pabc
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Re: The League is Rubbish !

Post by pabc » Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:50 am

Heavyman wrote:If people want a change thats ok just need to see if people agree.one system sugested would be to work out percentage of your finish time against the winners time male and female so if your time is 80% of winners time you get 80 points with bonus points for cb and pb newer runners would get a lot of bonus points but would probably have less % age points. If the system is to change then there would be a bit of work for phil to reprogram the web site.
pretty sure I did a bit of this already. Results enterers will notice the (currently optional) 'winners time' boxes. That was there for this purpose.

however, as I've said numerous times - when we elect someone to do the role of something or other let them get on with it. Make suggestions by all means but either accept their choices or put yourself up for the role.

I stopped doing the leagues because of constant critism by people not prepared to step up themselves.
Finally got time to return to the club, both virtually and physically, and I'm on the injured step.................

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Re: The League is Rubbish !

Post by foxontherun » Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:12 am

Well said. And for also working out that the Premier League's first leaders were the mighty Sky Blues.
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Re: The League is Rubbish !

Post by Chipaholic » Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:20 pm

Dave

Think of the League as a collection of races where there is likely to be a good turn out of Lercers, which means lots of support (important for someone new to racing) and socialising. I remember finishing a fell race to a line of Lercer doing a Mexican wave for me and that felt great!

The points are just an added extra.

Talking of points. Who got 136 and 135 points? How much further in front of you were they? Rather than being bothered by the fact that you got 137 points even though you came last why not think about catching and maybe beating (in future races) those just in front of you.

Enjoy!

Talking of enjoyment (and a bit randon). All you non fell runners missed a cracking view at the top of Win Hill at tonights fell race.

Clare
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Re: The League is Rubbish !

Post by boyband6666 » Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:49 pm

I've left it a while to reply, but basically whilst I agree with some of what you are saying, I mostly disagree. Before saying ‘it is rubbish’ (without any real justification), you have to ask what it is there for. Only when it has criteria to be judged against can you say something is good or bad.

What the league I think is trying to do, is encourage turnout for members of the club at some races, and promote some competition between people – a way to track that over the season (and seasons!). In this it is fairly successful I would argue. That’s not to say it is perfect.

Other clubs have different systems, all to try and promote slightly different variations. My old running club had 8 races, and it was positions from 6 of the 8 that were used. Erewash have a summer series where you get your best times over 5k, 5 miles, 10k, and half marathon, and add up the times for one cup, and the WAVA for the other cup. For the Erewash winter league, you get 3 points for first Erewash home, and then 1 point for each Erewash person you beat

If you base it purely on speed, it doesn't encourage turnout at a 5.6 mile league race, or a hilly early season half marathon. In fact it doesn't encourage turnout much at all. Ours requires 10 races in the summer (8 in the winter), which means there are surprisingly few people who qualify, especially if you are targeting a specific race, for which racing might not be compatible (specifically a Spring or Autumn marathon).

Anyway what we have is good I think, it does encourage you to do races you wouldn't have otherwise (as you wouldn't hear about them). It also puts a bit of meaning in to pushing yourself a bit to beat other Long Eaton people. It can also be mighty close – the last winter league the top 4 were separated by 4 points i.e. one result the other way, and it’d have been at least 1 countup of head to head races. I think that’s pretty cool.

As for downsides to the current system, I can think of a couple, with a few suggestions, but like anything, it should be debated properly, and no ‘just change it’.
• Firstly the 150 points you are right is a bit arbitrary, though any number would be. But the way it works with 150 and decreasing, means that being 2nd Long Eaton back at a massive event (say the Notts Half with 40+ Long Eaton runners) is worth less than being the only person prepared to drive to the NMXC in Corby (last year nobody did).
• Secondly the number of races to quality (10 / 8 for summer / winter) is quite high
• There was a desire previously to avoid it being the ‘same’ races year on year – with a lot to choose from I can see how this is the case where you do have a lot of repetition. Mixing it up a bit would be good, as you can then do things you never would even know about – as an example this year I saw the Crich monument race in the league. I’d never heard of it but it was really cool (though the complimentary beer tasted a bit swampy)

Anyway my suggestions for improving it would be
• Change the scoring to be 40 points for first Long Eaton home, and then and EXTRA 1 point for every person you beat in your gender. By my reckoning this would then make the most popular races worth about 50% more than the less popular ones
• Change the number of events counting to 7 (for both summer and winter). Encouraging turnout is a great thing, and lowering the bar a tiny bit hopefully makes people able to fit in the club races, alongside other aims and goals (marathon training, and other major races)
• Limit the number of races in the Long Eaton calendar. Maybe have it so any race is in only 2 years out of 3? That way more make it in? If there were 14 races in the calendar, this would be having to do half to have a chance of winning, which sounds reasonable, and hopefully try and drive turnout to these events, making a bit of a club atmosphere?
• Maybe also throw in a couple of ‘Brucey bonus’ away days. The Marbella half you are all doing I think it is? That should be in the calendar, or something like the Leeds Abbey Dash, Reading Half, London Marathon – one of these each season – the national high profile events, which might encourage some of us to go for the same race! They don’t all have to be local!

These are just suggestions though, and everyone else may entirely disagree, which is fine (and means they shouldn't be taken on).

I think the ultimate arbiters here are the club captains, so Kev and Rachel, Shaun as the one with experience of what works and what doesn't work, and also Phil as he is the one that makes the scoring add up! If I can be of any use, let me know.

Otherwise though, it is a good bit of fun, and pret much does what it should of encouraging you to do races you otherwise might not, and push a bit harder than you might have done without the league :-)

Anthony

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Re: The League is Rubbish !

Post by foxontherun » Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:30 pm

Well said Ant. You make some sensible, well-reasoned comments and suggestions. This is a subject that won't go away, but the way forward is to have an objective, structured debate, with a time-table to come up with recommendations to put to the Club Management Committee, then the club membership at the next AGM, probably 2015.

This isn't a subject to tinker with. Our leagues have operated the same way for a long time, without the club collapsing into irrelevance, so any significant changes to the system must be well-thought through if they are to make our summer and winter leagues better.

We should start with a small independent group of club members (although current club membership needn't be a pre-requisite) who have an interest in the subject, and who should report to the CMC in due course.
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Re: The League is Rubbish !

Post by Mark » Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:11 am

I STILL agree with Dave Riley !
About everything ! :lol: \:D/

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Re: The League is Rubbish !

Post by ScootCowboy » Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:03 pm

I don't know how its scored as I'm never going to trouble the leaders but I do know that I'd have done less races since joining if it wasn't for this league. It's a great way of highlighting and getting people interested in some of the more niche races. My previous club never had anything like this its a big plus for LERC.

I'm really looking forward to the start of the winter league.
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